KTM cams

[Kata]

An interesting video...


https://youtu.be/h6O-VPQGsKI?si=JxLgjIq4rYAQT9k7

[MikeZ]

That's the first detailed coherent explanation I've seen. Good to know.

[menzies3032]

Did not watch it all as very detailed but as somebody with a Kawasaki ZX6 that just dropped a valve does make me wonder if the issue is specific to KTM

[Scotty]

Did not watch it all as very detailed but as somebody with a Kawasaki ZX6 that just dropped a valve does make me wonder if the issue is specific to KTM

Dropping valves is a different issue altogether, nothing to do with the problem of camshaft lobe wear on the KTM Parallel twins. Last winter my 1290 and Chicky's 790 were approaching the 18k valve check interval so we did them in the garage at home - no point in paying £80+/hr for a dealer chimp to do it if one is capable and prepared to get stuck in.
After struggling to get a proper clearance reading on the #1A inlet valve I had a closer look and spotted that the cam lobe was pretty worn, so it had to come out for a better look. This was the only worn lobe, but it still meant that the camshaft was scrap, and the follower showed wear too so that needed changing. We always use Premier Bikes near Abingdon and a call to their helpful parts guy was enlightening. KTM were aware of the issue but as the bike was nearly 4 years out of warranty there was no chance of anything from them for it. The camshafts still had the same part # so they weren't deemed the problem. Interestingly the Cylinder Head has a different part # so they've belatedly found the same thing as the guy on the video demonstrated and since have tightened up the positioning of the cross-drillings for the oil jets.
Chicky's bike was about the 5th that Premier Bikes had become aware of - hardly an epidemic level of failures over 6 years and a decent number of sales, but you get the feeling that other manufacturers might take a more charitable approach to a fault that's obviously of their making. It's annoying that most of the bikes won't get close to the 18k mark during their 2-year warranty period, so this doesn't get found in time for a free replacement, and I'd urge any owner of a <2 year old KTM parallel twin to take the cam cover off and inspect the lobes before the warranty expires. I don't know when the updated head was introduced to production, but it's annoying that it's cost owners thousands and KTM are pretty indifferent about it. Chicky had to fork out £213 for a new inlet camshaft, and £58 for a new follower...
She heard recently that KTM were reimbursing some people for this issue - maybe word got around after people watched the video and the rumour grew legs. I can't really envisage a Japanese manufacturer bringing a bike into production with this kind of failure mode waiting to happen. Then again, early buyers of new Japanese models aren't viewed by the manfacturers as Beta Testers...

[Jug]

Real info on KTM's response is hard to determine due to all the hearsay around this but from what I have been able to gather they are covering this issue even if out of warranty. They are also now willing to reimburse anyone who has previously paid to have replacement parts installed as "goodwill", though I take issue with that statement as it's their problem so it's their responsibility to make it good.

You first need to have it inspected at a KTM dealer, if this issue is confirmed then KTM will cover the full cost of replacement head & cams. If no issue is found then unfortunately you have to pay for inspection, which will be few hours of labour.
Some bikes will have this issue found during the 18k valve inspection and so will just get the replacement parts installed while it's in.

I would just inspect it first myself and if it looks like there's an issue then get it booked in.

Another test you can do is to pull the tank and cam cover off and spin the engine over on the starter motor. If the cams are receiving a good squirt of oil then your bike is not affected. If it is affected you'll see the oil jet is weak and falling short of the cam.

Chicky had to fork out £213 for a new inlet camshaft, and £58 for a new follower...

If what Matt said about the issue is true (that the cross drilling is the cause) then it will happen again unless the head is also changed to fix oil supply problem. If you kept the old parts you could probably still submit that 790 for inspection and maybe also get a refund for the parts you purchased.

[Scotty]

Hmmm, I'll follow that up and make enquiries... a £270 refund would always be welcome.
We're aware of the likelihood of the issue repeating itself with the new camshaft. A responsible manufacturer would ensure that affected customers are looked after, and enhance the prospects of repeat business come new bike time, however....

[Ming]

My experience :-
Loved my 790 Duke. Bought the 2018 model in 2020, had it serviced by KTM dealer until 15k. By the time it needed another service it was up to 23k and tbh running as well as it ever did. Had the service done by a local mechanic who I trust and was going to keep it. Then I got wind of the problems people had experienced via FB and realised KTM weren't going to help me - high mileage, not full KTM history, 6 years old. Basically I had a KTM paperweight, as there's no way I'd be able to sell it once MCN published their piece about the problem. WBAC were going to offer me a low-ish price, which was the best offer I had, when a dealer offered to match the price if I part exd the Duke, which I was happy to do. Now I've no idea if mine was affected but I wasn't prepared to take the chance. KTM have constantly denied it was a fundamental problem and only isolated cases, but that's because the majority of owners haven't had their engines torn apart to check - there's very little warning that something's amiss, so there's many more that are carrying that problem. If they'd come out straight away and said they would cover all repairs, I'd have kept the bike. I had nothing but trouble with my 790 Adv but the Duke has been faultless. I love the brand, but have been burnt twice now so that's me done with them.

[Jug]

KTM were very slow to find the issue, or just slow to realize that they needed to do something about it rather than hoping it would go away.
Thankfully the bike press, forums and social media had made it so they just couldn't ignore it.

From what I've seen (mainly FB and Youtube) the cams & fingers can show the issue at any mileage above a few thousand, which after watching Matts explanation it makes sense. Some bikes will only suffer when the oil is cold and/or just at idle etc.. so it will take varying amounts of use before the issue finally shows, if there is one. Also some people have discovered wear on one cam but haven't had running or starting issues, so wouldn't have inspected their cams were it not for hearing about the issue.

I think lots more will get discovered within the next few years, during the first valve service but the dealers will just sorting them and KTM will be paying for it.

[Tvrv37]

Looking at this from a consumer perspective, Second hand values on KTM are already challenged due to constant discounting of new bikes. I don't think you'd consider a 790/890 that hadn't been checked, or had the work done. KTM seem to react slowly and do the bare minimum. This should be a recall with all bikes checked/repaired FOC.


Ultimately customers will vote with their feet and walk across to another manufacturer. Sad but true.

KTM stop mugging off your customers.

[Ming]

Yeah, the 790 Adventure was a reliability nightmare. I bought it just as it was launched and it was plagued with problems - not ones that would stop me using it but things like leaks and dash misting etc. By the time it was 18 mths old they'd knocked 2 grand off the price so mine was worth less than half what I'd paid. That bike may also have had the cam problems but I'll never know.
If I wanted a fun naked bike now I'd go for an MT09 and have some reliability

[Jug]

We've got an owner on the KTM UK forum who has a 790 Duke with a knackered engine due to this cam issue, so he's bought a used 890 engine and is going to drop that in.

Why not just have it inspected and have KTM fix it?
He did, they said no due to his bike not having a full servicing history.

So it seems KTM are only extending their "good will" for their own manufacturing mistake to bikes that have a full dealer service history, so if buying an unchecked used 790/890 you need to make sure it's got a FDSH or has been inspected.

I'm on the fence with this now, I was thinking about getting a 790 or 890 Duke in the future as a run around and for taking in the van... not so sure now.

[Ming]

I'd only do that Rich, if you have proof it's been repaired by KTM with a new head, cams and followers. Think they also a larger oil jet. Only then, if it's cheap. Fantastic bike btw

[Scotty]

Some say...
KTM = Keep Taking Money

I chatted with Andy Valentine, owner of Premier Bikes until last year, not long after he'd taken on a Triumph franchise (half of their operation is Oxford Triumph since then), and he said that dealing with the two companies over warranties is like chalk and cheese: - Triumph are pretty amenable as long as you're not pulling a fast one, whereas KTM will argue the toss over anything and do their utmost not to honour a claim.

I love the bikes, they're great fun to ride, and I've been fortunate that my 1290 SDR has been OK, reliability-wise (only radiator damage inflicted by wheelies, ahem, has been an issue). Chicky wasn't so lucky as her 790 Duke is an early first-year example, the owners of which are seen by KTM as Beta Testers. She's had the usual rash of niggles such as dripping thermostat cover (new part # from KTM to fix it, no recall), Clock display disappeared following a downpour - this they did sort out FoC, after some good asking by Premier Bikes (out of warranty, incomplete service book too), ignition cutting out sporadically (could have been due to a damaged rear wheel sensor cable that shorted out in rain - it came adrift during wheel removal and its displacement was not spotted until the tyre had damaged the insulation. A replacement sensor had its cable zip-tied out of harm's way), and now the saga of the worn cam lobes. We can only hope that the problem does not manifest itself on the replacement camshaft, but probability indicates its likelihood.

To anyone contemplating buying a new KTM, for they are indeed awesome bikes, I'd advise not buying a first year model; wait until the Beta Testers have done their work and uncovered the issues that KTM's all-too-brief validation period did not find.

[Ming]

Exactly that

The 790Adv had just been launched when I bought mine new. Never had a problem with the engine - the same as the Duke but lower power - but maybe the cams were soft. Got rid of it after 5k as by then it had had.....
3 dash displays due to condensation
3 silencers due to condensation leaks
2 front master cyls due to leaks
Replacement thermostat due to leaks
Recall to reposition the ABS unit
2nd rear disc and caliper due to overheating. Had to argue this via SP M/C's as KTM insisted I was riding the back brake. I pointed out if that was the case I'd have been told by following riders the brake light would have constantly been on. Just as I was going to p/ex the bike I had a recall letter to replace the rear hose as it wasn't correct and led to brake fluid boiling and jamming the rear caliper. I'd already told them this is what I thought was happening but they insisted SP cleaned the disc. Then cleaned the pads. Then replaced the pads. Then replaced the caliper. 4 fecking times it went in and still wasn't fixed properly when I got rid of it. I almost felt sorry for SP as each time, they said "this won't fix it" but KTM wouldn't authorise replacement of things unless their recommendations had been followed. I think in all the bike went in 7 or 8 times in a little over a year, which is a PITA when you're 20 miles from the nearest dealer and they won't give you a loan bike.

[bkingalan]

Looked at getting another superduke a couple of months ago but had another recall for my last one for more electric problems I think mine had a completely new loom by the time I sold it and after the the suspension problems on 1290 adv which they didn't what to know about about and that it had done it again to the new owner don't I'll be giving them anymore of my money

Yes I know they now own mv before anyone says